Immigrant Labor

[Hawnjigs]

Out here in the Heartland, never had much interest, but with the media hoopla, thought i'd research:

"More than half of all dairy workers in the U.S. are immigrants, according to a 2015 industry-sponsored study, and farms that employ immigrant labor produce 79 percent of the nation’s milk."

"The U.S. Department of Labor’s National Agricultural Workers Survey (NAWS) provides information about the immigration status of hired crop farmworkers - 71 percent were foreign-born (67 percent in Mexico and 4 percent elsewhere). Forty-eight percent of crop workers surveyed indicated that they were not legally authorized to work in the United States"

[size=medium][size=medium][size=medium]"[font=PublicoText-Roman-Web, Georgia, Cambria,]Immigrants hold 35 percent of the 441,000 animal slaughtering and processing jobs in the U.S., according to the U.S. Census Bureau."[/size][/font][/size][/size]

[size=medium][size=medium][size=medium][font=PublicoText-Roman-Web, Georgia, Cambria,][size=small][size=medium]"A Tulane study found that close to 100,000 undocumented workers were critical in rebuilding the Gulf Coast region after Hurricane Katrina. Texas is going to require a massive migration of workers if they have any hope of rebuilding within the next few years. What has made this monumental task unfeasible is the fact that, according to several studies, half of the construction workforce is undocumented. These workers perform all the construction jobs that there is currently a shortage of skilled labor: dry-walling, framing,  wiring, and plumbing. Unfortunately, fearing arrest, many have already fled their jobs in Texas"[/size][/size][/size][/font][/size][/size]

 

[Bucho]

Its a bit funny to hear americans speak of "immigrants", I find "foreign born" more precise.

We had this discussion here some time ago. They made a law requiring a minimum 10% or so German citizens among crop workforce. They had to give it up quickly because of the few long term unemployed locals who actually showed up for work, almost all broke down after a few days of hard labor and called in sick.

Meanwhile, there are more than 1 million ukrainian crop workers in Poland filling in for the Poles working in Germany and the UK. Main reason for brexit btw was to rid the country off diligent east european workforce. Next years will be interesting. Ten to 15 years ahead when German baby boomers retire and every second of us is over 60, they will be highly apreciated.

I find it disturbing that 48% of US crop workers state to be "illegal". Don`t they have to be registered in social security and everything? Not judging, just curious. In Germany, they would give the employers hell for social securtity fraud on such a high scale.

 

[Hawnjigs]

"Many immigrants who aren’t authorized to work in the United States buy fake Social Security cards and present them to their employers, who either don’t know they are fake or don’t look too closely. When the employer submits a W-2 form and a tax payment on those workers’ behalf to the Social Security Administration, the federal government holds onto those payroll taxes, even if the Social Security number isn’t linked to anyone on file. And then, a large chunk of that money ends up in the Social Security trust funds, from which retirement benefits are doled out to aging Americans."

"We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010"

 

[Kdog]

Hawn, Unfortunately many undocumented workers are also paid under the table, cash. So no records are generated. They have cars, get EBT, and make a lot of money then head south for winter. They dont have insurance but find readily available free medical and dental through our various public agencies. There is a problem but I dont blame them, our system is at fault. Greed is the contributing factor and those guys work hard, get paid and never have to support our systems which the freely access.

The contractors using them bill for their time pay them about half and pocket the rest. Why does a $300,000 building cost $600,000.... Because someone is willing to look the other way and take their chances

 

[Hawnjigs]

K-Dog,  I don't understand  how undocumented workers can "make a lot of money" while working for lower wages?  Can you suggest a media report?

I got tired of immigrants being targeted as a political tool to draw attention away from more important issues.  Regarding illegals gaming the system:
"As it is, with only very narrow exceptions, immigrants already must wait for a period of five years before they can access federal public benefits like Medicaid, Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program benefits (formerly known as food stamps), cash assistance, and Social Security benefits. Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for these benefits"

Altho not the best informed, seems to me that stats suggest that undocumented workers are absolutely essential to our economy, and instead of deportation and blockading the discussion should be about how best to integrate them legally, since they are already functioning members of society.  Maybe we need the food production industry to crash as a wake up.  Texas may lead the way attempting to repair & rebuild hurricane damage.

Meanwhile, lawmakers seek to cut 150 BILLION $ from poverty assistance programs like SNAP (previously food stamps).  Regardless of political beliefs who among us regular working stiffs think its OK for our fellow CITIZENS to go hungry to finance tax cuts for the rich?  Sorry, looked for and couldn't find the $ amount effect on the economy reducing the top bracket from 39.6% to 35%, & I suspect our billionaire administrators are flat out lying when they claim they would receive no personal benefit.

 

[hookup]

Orange County CA went bankrupt and saw a dramatic increase in crime because of their policies to help illegals

Let's just call them what they are, shall we

 

[Kdog]

Hawn, mt onservastions are real life, I know these guys see them daily, they freely admit to what they are doing. They make more money because of no taxes. The dont get paid overtime, but many work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week

 

[Hawnjigs]

Ah, forgot that under the table involved not paying taxes. I think guys working that hard deserve what they make, as opposed to "investors" who produce zero goods or services, and profit from the misfortune of others.

Looked up the OC bankruptcy that was declared 23 YEARS AGO in 1994:
"Orange County filed for bankruptcy late Tuesday, after heavy borrowing and risky investments in its investment pool turned into big losers as market interest rates rose. An investment fund meltdown led to the criminal prosecution of treasurer Robert Citron. The county lost at least $1.5 billion through high-risk investments in bonds."

OC economy opportunity for "illegals":
"By the mid-1950s, Orange County’s farms were being replaced by tract housing. Tourism, manufacturing, and the service industry began to dominate the local economy. While agriculture has all but disappeared, many local oil wells are still pumping. Orange County is the headquarters of many Fortune 500 companies including Ingram Micro (#69) and First American Corporation (#312) in Santa Ana, Broadcom (#343) in Irvine, Western Digital (#439) in Lake Forest and Pacific Life (#452) in Newport Beach. Many regional headquarters for international businesses reside in Orange County like Mazda, Toshiba, Toyota, Samsung, Kia Motors, in the City of Irvine, Mitsubishi in the City of Cypress, and Hyundai in the City of Fountain Valley. Restaurants such as Taco Bell, El Pollo Loco, In-N-Out Burger, Claim Jumper, Marie Callender's, Wienerschnitzel, have headquarters in the City of Irvine"

OC demographics:
"Orange County politics are still dominated by Republicans. Four of the county's seven U.S. Representatives, three of its five State Senators, and five of its seven State Assembly members are Republicans. All five members of the County Board of Supervisors are Republicans as well, as are the seven countywide elected officials."

Hookup, the question posed in my mind when you stated that "Wall St. owns us" back in 2012 inspired my quest for truth. Wall St. apparently owned President Obama who failed to deliver his promise to find and prosecute those responsible for the crash of 2008. As for the current administration, "Former Goldman Sachs banker and dealmaker Steve Mnuchin is Trump's Treasury Secretary, private equity billionaire Wilbur Ross is Commerce Secretary, former Goldman Sachs President Gary Cohn is Trump’s chief economic advisor, former Goldman Sachs partner Dina Powell is deputy national security advisor for strategy, and billionaire investor Carl Icahn is advising Trump on regulatory overhaul."

 

[hookup]

OC went out and happened in the 90's.

Here's some current images of the bike trail I use to ride. The majority of these homeless are illegals and interfere with people trying to enjoy a walk or ride on the trail

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/10/leadership-needed-on-riverbed-homeless/

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/1...f-riverbed-homeless-following-board-approval/

And this goes on for miles & miles. And not only in OC

Here's some stats of the crime & what it's costing the people

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/03/santa-ana-river-trail-belongs-to-the-taxpayers/

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/07/man-stabbed-near-homeless-encampment-along-santa-ana-river/

Yes, I'll admit not every homeless is an illegal, but they suck up any social services that the county offers. Got down & collect unemployment, go to the free clinic, free legal service - and the list goes on over the services the country provides. You'll be lucky to find anyone in these lines that speak English.

I lived there for 20 years and still keep in contact with many who say the problem has increased exponentially

Another example is the city of Herdon VA set up a shelter, at the cost of over a million dollars, for immigrants to find jobs. They littered each street corner trying to find day labor jobs. Turned out within six months the shelter was overrun & couldn't handle the traffic so they shut it down.

What starts as an idea to help out people turned into a disaster.

I'm not 100 percent behind everything the current administration is doing, but shutting down the borders, I'm behind.

Here's another example of illegal immigrants costing tax payers money & killing young girls at the same time. This happened less than 1/2 mile from my house. I walked in solitary with my muslim neighbors to her funeral.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...d706461fa4f_story.html?utm_term=.eed025acbeb5

Recent article point to the guy being part of ms13

Let's stick with the title of the thread and not make this a kitchen sink discussion bringing in the problems with the 1%'rs.

 

[Hawnjigs]

OK, back to the original subject - can the food production & construction industries survive losing up to half the current workforce by deporting/blockading entry of "illegals"? Anyone can whine for or against, I don't notice any constructive solutions.

How about legitimizing and organizing border gateways to immigration screening centers? Weed out the criminals, and assist those who would be law abiding and productive. Employers or agencies wishing to hire can participate and choose at entry centers, and should assist with settlement including housing if needed. Allow a time period for applicants to get hired, otherwise they're not allowed entry.

Yes, it'll require $$ and manpower, but so will a border wall. Does anyone seriously believe a wall will prevent illegal border crossing? Seen "Sicario"?

The obvious solution is to lower the taxes of the 1%, resulting in more $ to fund the program.

 

[hookup]

Sorry I was a little abrasive yesterday - got a mean cold and it made me short - well, shorter than I'm already am

Living in SoCA for 20 years I heard all the arguments for and against illegal immigrant labor.  I also attended school where they had to teach in Spanish because many in my classes did not have control of the language.  I saw county & state documents come out in Spanish.  The state turned bi-lingual.   Then there's my Mom who immigrated from Germany.  She had to learn to language and work hard to get her citizenship - and when she got it she was proud.  She immigrated legally.  And that's all I heard for years is why do we placate the Hispanics and not other nationalities.

Then add the crime element.  Huge Hispanic gangs & crime in CA.  When I moved to the right coast, MS-13.  Virginia tried to placate the immigrants but realized how expensive it was and stopped.

Illegal immigrants is a button for me.

edit.  Just happened again.  Went to WTOP and this is the first article that caught my eye  https://wtop.com/maryland/2017/10/8...d-string-killings-drug-trafficking-extortion/

 

[Hawnjigs]

Thank you for participating in this discussion - hopefully informative to others with an open mind.

Immigration does not stand alone as a problem, and currently is being used as a political tool to create emotional response to divide our citizenry further. Smokescreen for massive cuts to assistance programs for the needy, tax cuts for those who don't need them, creating situations to justify increased military spending, forgiving corporate overseas tax dodging, on & on.

Do we have a Hispanic gang problem?  Yes, and well worked by the media to create racial animosity.  But again, doesn't stand alone, here's a study by ALEC conservative think tank:
"From the collected data, the Initiative found that the incarceration system in this country “hold more than 2.4 million people in 1,719 state prisons, 102 federal prisons, 2,259 juvenile correctional facilities, 3,283 local jails, and 79 Indian Country jails as well as in military prisons, immigration detention facilities, civil commitment centers, and prisons in the U.S. territories.”[1] This total distinguishes the United States with the highest incarcerated population in the world."
Not much in the news lately about Italian, Irish, Russian, or non-discriminatory white gangs, so I guess they're not a problem.


Incarcerations are only criminals that got caught and convicted, what tiny percentage is that?  Perhaps we should examine and at least attempt to repair the greater societal issue that creates the desperate need to break laws to survive?  Maybe government for the benefit of the rich at the expense of everyone else contributes to a feeling of hopelessness and even righteous anger that motivates criminal behavior?  Maybe take the time to find out who the few sincere politicians working to address the root problem of income inequality and hold the REAL parasites on society accountable?

Most of us work hard all our lives, and are proud of the service or product we provide.  Then there are those that take our hard earned $ & knowingly sell us something with adverse or even disasterous health or financial consequences.

But, you know, we keep supporting lying billionaire lawmakers because Fox News tells us to, and whine about "liberals" being the problem.  And back to immigrants, deport em all and build the wall.  Oops, guess Mexico ain't paying for it.

Don't forget, this is a view from the middle by a conservative leaning non-Republican non-Democrat disconnecting from partisan BS.

 

[toadfrog]

Illegal Imigration must end by any and all means . No matter where the people come from. It is the first step unless you want to follow the path of the Roman Empire where this country no longer be free at all or exist . This BS began many years ago when farmers on the border smuggled in people to work there farms . Now there is an epidemic of problems . There is a part of me that says they are getting what they deserve . But then my family and yours receive in recompense the fall out of a divided nation to the behest of thieving politicians making money from a crumbling nation whose people will not stand for our constitution as it is written. If we as a nation do not fix this and every other problem from Gun control to freedom of speech everything in between then no parts of the rest of the world will follow . Soon and very soon if we allow evils of our own governments to proceed as they are, then be prepared for people across the planet to see more death and destruction than my feeble mind could possibly conceive. The big picture is simple either choose the path laid down by our founding fathers or die in the clutches of pure evil . I have said nothing here that will help . I will say God's Speed , May we some day all meet in a better place , time or space where there will be no division of mind or body .

 

[Hawnjigs]

TF, of course you're correct in principle that illegal is just that.  Maybe we should more vigorously enforce the letter of the law and get rid of illegals and see what happens.  If the economy crashes, so be it, we can work at fixing it.

Thinking about it, for what thats worth, as mentioned maybe a better approach would be to de-criminalize the immigrants who would be or are already an asset, while weeding out the bad apples.  Right now, I've read a green card application takes 5-10 yrs. to process.  The manpower required to search and deport might be better utilized in expediting the process.

Society is rotten at the top, you mentioned thieving politicians who are really low level parasitic wannabes for their masters.  Impossible to fix with fully a third of Americans supporting arguably the most corrupt administration in history. Ignoring watchdog heads up:
"As of Oct. 10, the Fact Checker has catalogued 1,318 false or misleading claims by President Trump since he took office in January."

Philosophically, this is the apex of capitalistic process where accomplishment is valued by $ and greed & sociopathic exploitation are assets for achievement.

Hopefully, we'll get in some quality time before things really fall apart.  Good thing we're old, eh TF?

 

[Jig Man]

Build the wall........

 

[Hawnjigs]

Why?......

 

[Bucho]

Just read the wikipedia article about the Mexico-Guatemala border. Pretty much sums it up.

A strict immigration policy that dries out undocumented labor might rise awareness and request of legal migration and change things for the better.

Personly, I have no problem with 500.000 syrian refugees but the other 500,000-700.000 fortune hunters and social misfits, many of whom have thrown away their passports and go for a fresh identity each time they get into trouble with police, are messing things up big time. They can move freely within the (european) schengen treaty countries while their criminal records are left behind until they literally kill somebody.  Stigmatization is a serious issue with migration. I believe the only way to handle it is to keep things properly documented.

I do not believe in a physical wall though, rather than effective surveilance. Having been to East Germany as a kid, I can say that while it is possible for a country to go without any migration at all, it is not pretty.

 

[LedHed]

You are all immigrants unless you have some Native American blood in you.

The usa broke every treaty they made with Native Americans and tried to preform a genocide.
Took the best of this country and stuck the true people of this land on reservations - in the name
their god.

 

[Hawnjigs]

I'm GUESSING that most southern origin immimgrants are escapees wanting a "better" life which to them means enuf to eat and decent shelter, and are willing to WORK for it.  And for whatever reason, society will also breed sociopaths with an unquenchable desire for more regardless of the consequences of their actions on others.  These criminals will fit into the niche of society where they can best survive, be it MS 13 or Wall St.  Look up a no holds barred history of America's robber barons and their history of bribing and even murdering their way to the top.

Hey Sonny, you got blood?  Regardless, not surprising you're irate.
"After the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed to end the Mexican-American War, the U.S. took control of California, and in the latter half of the 19th century both State and Federal authorities, incited[5][6] aided and financed miners, settlers, ranchers and people`s militias to enslave, kidnap, murder and exterminate a major proportion of displaced Native American Indians.The handiwork of these well armed death squads combined with the widespread random killing of Indians by individual miners resulted in the death of 100,000 Indians in the first two years of the gold rush." 

Criminal greed at the top appears to perpetuate a culture of the same at the bottom.  "As above so below."

Hahaha, the link to the Mexico-Guatemala border reminded me of the fake wall news that appeared during the last presidential election when the USA-Mexico wall was a campaign selling point.

The European floating migrant situation appears to need adjustment and enforcement, and I applaud the good intentions.  With all the immigration solutions and resulting problems evident internationally, you'd think the USA could learn from them and create a workable system.

OK, thanks for "listening" and participating, just trying to share my findings from what appears to be a late life unquenchable desire for truth.

 

[toadfrog]

Maybe if the border is closed all the dead beats laid up on momma's couch playing on their cell phones will have to work if they are to eat . On another note If the media CBS ABc and all the others are squawking about one thing they are hiding ten . The bible , the bill of rights and the constitution are the greatest documents ever done on this planet . None of those three contradict each other . I will defend them to the bitter end whether you are friend or foe . If your personal attitudes or beliefs can't comprehend these documents as written then they can get out of my country on there own , by force or body bag if it comes to that . I seldom ever bad mouthed Obama though I loathed him . The Clintons have a special place in hell I'm sure . The scum fighting the president now like Lindsey Graham , Paul Ryan , Mitch McConnell , Chuck Shumer , Debbie Wasserman Shultz, Loretta Lynch and many more . Need to go and quickly. I've heard every BS justification for the immigrant . I went to the border about three years ago to see . I know what is there , I know what is crossing and I can tell you this you strip south of the border person down to his underwear and an ISIS person down and you can't tell the difference . Close the damn border down until a satisfactory vetting is possible and the letter of the law is followed. Obama was offered a technology that could sense and distinguish a human crossing . It would then send up a drone to pin point the location an send coordinates to the border patrol . It was flatly turned down and the individual who developed it came under government scrutiny . There are no Republicans . There are no Democrats . There is a many headed snake looking to enslave the population of this planet . With that rant I am done with this subject .