ICE Facility
- Thread starter Hawnjigs
- Start date
Bucho
Member
Its weird what some people do to themselfes and their families if they have funny ideas about the grass being greener on the other side. Best example is the "jungle", a wild refugee camp at the Euro Tunnel entrance between Calais and Dover where migrants have been living in miserey for years rather than aply for asylum in France - which most Eurpeans consider a perfectly good asylum country with a decent standard of living and good access to education, health care and everything.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...is-jungle-camp-and-how-its-changed-since-1999
I have had a close eye on Sweden ever since I learned the language there back in 1998 in preparation for an exchange programme. Their left wing government had to administrate a full emergency stop on imigration in 2015. Today, more than 50% of their once proud welfare goes to migrants out of whom more than 50% are structurally unemployed. 6 out of 10 Somalies who were born there don`t even get a high school degree, and it eats them up: In many regions you have to drive more than 100km for a manned police station or an obstetrical clinic because there simply isn`t enough money to support such infrastructure any more.
I dated an accountent of a German refugee camp the other day who said
1. Most of the wildly disturbing things that happen in there never make it out in public
2. Deportation simply doesn`t work in Germany (including really dangerous and unpleasant people)
3. They have winter time regulars - homeles from south east Europa- who rely on the German Asylum system to take several months to repeatetly reject them.
Migration comes in waves. A facility that is sufficient in the long run will always go through overcrowding at some point of time - as in this picture. Germany let in 20.000 controlled "quota-Syrians" back in 2013. They were so enthusiastic about our "Wilkommenskultur" that they called their friends and families and attracted an uncontrolled 200.000 more. When those too managed to march right through Europe and realized they were welcome, it started a "crisis" with more than 2 mio migrants from all over the world - a good part of which thirsted to death in the Sahara or drowned in the Mediterranian.
Hawnjigs what do you think will happen if these people (who passed on asylum in Mexico if I get it right) will be treated as if the U.S. had only been waiting for them?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...is-jungle-camp-and-how-its-changed-since-1999
I have had a close eye on Sweden ever since I learned the language there back in 1998 in preparation for an exchange programme. Their left wing government had to administrate a full emergency stop on imigration in 2015. Today, more than 50% of their once proud welfare goes to migrants out of whom more than 50% are structurally unemployed. 6 out of 10 Somalies who were born there don`t even get a high school degree, and it eats them up: In many regions you have to drive more than 100km for a manned police station or an obstetrical clinic because there simply isn`t enough money to support such infrastructure any more.
I dated an accountent of a German refugee camp the other day who said
1. Most of the wildly disturbing things that happen in there never make it out in public
2. Deportation simply doesn`t work in Germany (including really dangerous and unpleasant people)
3. They have winter time regulars - homeles from south east Europa- who rely on the German Asylum system to take several months to repeatetly reject them.
Migration comes in waves. A facility that is sufficient in the long run will always go through overcrowding at some point of time - as in this picture. Germany let in 20.000 controlled "quota-Syrians" back in 2013. They were so enthusiastic about our "Wilkommenskultur" that they called their friends and families and attracted an uncontrolled 200.000 more. When those too managed to march right through Europe and realized they were welcome, it started a "crisis" with more than 2 mio migrants from all over the world - a good part of which thirsted to death in the Sahara or drowned in the Mediterranian.
Hawnjigs what do you think will happen if these people (who passed on asylum in Mexico if I get it right) will be treated as if the U.S. had only been waiting for them?
duffy
Member
I'm always question these pictures and how well dressed and clean everybody is when they have traveled thousands of miles through a wasteland to get here. The very first videos that they showed of the poor children taken away from their parents apparently weren't staged properly as they showed the kids well dressed, clean, playing basketball, eating a good meal and generally having a better life than back home. For all we know this pic could be a break room at Wal-Mart. Lately all the "experts" are wondering why were having an outbreak of measles, mumps and other diseased that have been pretty much well controlled here and blame it on the lack of vaccinations. How about looking at the influx of people that are pouring in illegally, unchecked and probably un-vaccinated? But they can't make mention of that. Just think of 20K people showing up at your house unannounced for dinner, what would that look like? Don't get me wrong, I feel for some of the people, but let's just follow the law's and rules that were made to try and keep some sort of order.
Hawnjigs
KISS
Bucho, thanks again for a European perspective relevant to USA issues which inspire me to become informed thru research. According to Swedish gov tho "immigration to Sweden for 2017 was expected to be roughly 180,000 individuals, and thereafter to number 110,000 persons every year." i'm sure your observations on Germany as a resident citizen are valid.
Indeed the foundation of immigration is "greener grass" - case in point being the USA was and is being nearly 100% populated by immigrants or their descendants. My observation is the current administration encouraging hostility towards immigrants as "terrorists, murderers, rapists, human traffickers" is a cover up to distract from failure to deliver promises of better health care, infrastructure maintenance, working class prosperity, financial sector fraud oversight, prescription drug price relief, and most important honesty and transparency in government.
Not sure how to answer your question - there are Americans who welcome law abiding immigrants seeking better lives and there are those who honestly believe immigrants are culturally immoral and will be a burden to the resident citizenry. Personally, I can see who does the menial work in our jobs sector and wonder what would happen without them?
Of course there are bad apples in every group of people regardless of ethnicity or position in society, and hopefully our public servants will function to identify and hold them responsible for their actions.
Indeed the foundation of immigration is "greener grass" - case in point being the USA was and is being nearly 100% populated by immigrants or their descendants. My observation is the current administration encouraging hostility towards immigrants as "terrorists, murderers, rapists, human traffickers" is a cover up to distract from failure to deliver promises of better health care, infrastructure maintenance, working class prosperity, financial sector fraud oversight, prescription drug price relief, and most important honesty and transparency in government.
Not sure how to answer your question - there are Americans who welcome law abiding immigrants seeking better lives and there are those who honestly believe immigrants are culturally immoral and will be a burden to the resident citizenry. Personally, I can see who does the menial work in our jobs sector and wonder what would happen without them?
Of course there are bad apples in every group of people regardless of ethnicity or position in society, and hopefully our public servants will function to identify and hold them responsible for their actions.
Hawnjigs
KISS
Indeed, obstruction at points of entry due to inadequate staffing and odious procedure encourage illegal entry. Altho illegal aliens apparently don't qualify for any gov benefits they seem to get by, probably by finding a livelihood thru similarly illegal means.
Perhaps expediting legal immigration for the law abiding could distinguish illegal border jumpers as likely criminals? I dunno... At least a med check at the border could minimize the spread of infectious disease.
Perhaps expediting legal immigration for the law abiding could distinguish illegal border jumpers as likely criminals? I dunno... At least a med check at the border could minimize the spread of infectious disease.
Bucho
Member
Hawnjigs said:
Now I looked it up myself. Remember we are speaking of a country with only 10 mio inhabitant. Also, neighboring Denmakr has established ID controls to this day, effectively cutting off illegal migration to Sweden.
I distinguish asylum seekers from regular migrants who play by the rules and get themselves proper papers before entry. In the case of Sweden, there are many EU citiziens who enjoy freedom of movement. I find that rules matter. In Germany, the quota of people who actually suffer from prosecution for political or ethnic reasons (which is often the same in the near east and africa) has never been over 2%. There is a "protection quota" for people whose homeland is so messed up that it would be inhumane to send them back. This has been around 70% during the syrian civil war and is now down to 40%. The rest of asylum seekers stands for 95% (my guess) of the problems connected with migration, and I assume it is similar in Sweden.
America was build by migrants - who were sent back at the expenses of the shipping line that brought them if they were found too sickly, criminal or mentally unstable to pull their own weight. That is not the same as an abuse of the right for asylum. I find that the reason for migration matters.
Example: I once had a work colleage who`s well educted family had fled Istanbul for political reasons around 1980 or so, just like my family had fled east Germany. He could handle any customer from blue-collar to old money - execept for one family that came into the bank with 4 heavily mentally and physically disabled sons in wheelchairs. They were also from Turkey and kept asking for him because he was bilingual while they hadn`t learned a word of German in 15 years or so. They finally resorted to send the only daughter, who had no y-chromosome but fluent German language skills, a nice young lady " please don`t be surprised, I am already married but carry the same family name..."
Long story short, the father had told my coleague that he had only come to Germany because of his sick children. The family was one of many in the region who practice cultural related incest for reasons of control over their ofspring. Turkish lawmaking has long responded to this phenomenon while Germans choose to ignore it, for obvious reasons in our younger history. My coleage -who was the only person around that could even access the situation - was so disturbed by them that he silently fled the room each time he saw them coming again.
That is only one example of many I have come across working with all sorts of people with different social and financial background. Hence, I believe that the reason for migraton matters. I believe a country should have the right to take a pick. No Government, evil or not, will waist its resorces prosecuting irrelevant loosers. Political prosecution is "earned" by well educated, influential people with social skills. To grant such people refuge is an honor and a win for society. Being sloppy about abuse however will give imigration a bad name.
Its that simple.
Bucho
Member
hookup said:
This gives them dignitiy. I wish we had such procedure in Germany. Its precious. Don`t mess with it!
I remember how I felt when I was fixing the paperwork to employ an American shop hand and his girlfriend finally came out like "He is included in my health plan as a spouse; we are not really dating but we got married so he could stay (in the country.). Its not easy here so we had to do it in Denmark..."
Something broke that could not be fixed.
Personally, if I had to emigrate, I would always choose the country that welcomes me over the one that I had to sneak in, regardless the standard of living etc. I feel no pity for those who see that differently unless they are in actual danger for their lifes - which, to be honest, usually won`t follow you for more than a few dozend miles.
Hawnjigs
KISS
Immigration stats are scattered and difficult to pin down, here's some with some #s rounded off when appropriate:
2018 illegal border crossing apprehensions = 400,000 (down from 1.6 million in 2000)
2018 Port of Entry rejections = 124,500
Green cards issued 2016 = 140,000 (# is declining?)
Asylum granted 2016 = 20,500 Pending cases = 730,000
Couldn't find data on port of entry application #s or wait times at the border. Apparently the USA is illegally obstructing entry for asylum seekers according to United Nations mandate.
2018 illegal border crossing apprehensions = 400,000 (down from 1.6 million in 2000)
2018 Port of Entry rejections = 124,500
Green cards issued 2016 = 140,000 (# is declining?)
Asylum granted 2016 = 20,500 Pending cases = 730,000
Couldn't find data on port of entry application #s or wait times at the border. Apparently the USA is illegally obstructing entry for asylum seekers according to United Nations mandate.
Hawnjigs
KISS
I THINK this is the strategy to enter the USA legally.
1. Apply for asylum, which will get you across the border.
2. Since it will take at least 2 years for a court hearing, apply for a work visa and attempt to gainfully and lawfully get settled waiting.
3. If asylum is denied, well, at least you got your foot in the door and took steps to prove worthiness to become a productive law abiding citizen.
I suspect that waiting at the ports of entry on the Mexican side may be beyond the capability of most, especially for families with limited survival resources so they cross the border illegally and apply for asylum inside the USA border.
1. Apply for asylum, which will get you across the border.
2. Since it will take at least 2 years for a court hearing, apply for a work visa and attempt to gainfully and lawfully get settled waiting.
3. If asylum is denied, well, at least you got your foot in the door and took steps to prove worthiness to become a productive law abiding citizen.
I suspect that waiting at the ports of entry on the Mexican side may be beyond the capability of most, especially for families with limited survival resources so they cross the border illegally and apply for asylum inside the USA border.
Jig Man
Active member
If they are truly seeking asylum, then it is supposed to be in the first safe country you enter. Which is Mexico, not the United States. Purdy sure that is the way it is written. Of course, not all are coming from Central America. Some 40 other countries are involved, which makes that work further south like Brazil or Columbia or other countries in South America...
Bucho
Member
Hawnjigs said:
It would not surprise me if the Greencards were declining. If you flood a country with illegals, there is no need to ask for foreign labor and recognize their value. Also, illegals are easier to exploit on many levels.
There once was a time when American employers were competing for european imigrants, just like German companies had to compete for Turkish, Greece and Italiian laborers back in the 60ties and 70ties when economy was booming and workforce was scarce. They didn`t exactly bed them on roses but it was a different overall attitude.
There are high-tech start ups in Berlin who have difficulties finding living quarters for foreign specialists because landlords have made too much bad experience with tenants who carry funny foreign family names. Abuse of the right for asylum is not the way to go, and I am not happy with the way my country is carrying itself in this regard.
From what I have seen here in Europe, the U.S. would be ill advised if they replace 1.6 million illegal border crossings of 2000 with an corresponding amount of asylum seekers in the future.
Hawnjigs
KISS
Mexico is NOT safe, according to one of our forum members who no longer vacations there.
From Pew Research:
"In 2017, 4.9 million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico lived in the U.S., down from a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. Mexicans now make up fewer than half of the nation’s 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants (47% in 2017)."
Since USA mfg has moved production facilities south, maybe employment prospects are better in Mexico than USA ?
From Pew Research:
"In 2017, 4.9 million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico lived in the U.S., down from a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. Mexicans now make up fewer than half of the nation’s 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants (47% in 2017)."
Since USA mfg has moved production facilities south, maybe employment prospects are better in Mexico than USA ?
Hawnjigs
KISS
Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Inspector General regarding the findings of a site visit at the El Paso facility on May 7:
When inspectors visited on May 7, a total of 756 immigrants were being detained at the facility, half of them in a parking lot outside. The facility has an official maximum capacity of 123.
“In the outside parking lot,” the report found “detainees were being held for processing in areas that did not have heating, cooling, shade, or flooring.”
One cell, for instance, with a stated maximum capacity of 12, was said to be housing 57 adult women. An OIG count found 76 adult women were actually in the cell.
An adjacent cell intended for just 8 people was found to have 41 adult women crammed inside “in standing room only conditions” with no room to lay down and sleep, with one toilet and one sink. Agents told the OIG some of the migrants had been in standing room-only conditions, many wearing soiled clothing, “for days or weeks.”
The facility has just four temporary showers, leading to a smell inspectors described as “what might have been unwashed bodies/body odor, urine, untreated diarrhea, and/or soiled clothing/diapers.”
When inspectors visited on May 7, a total of 756 immigrants were being detained at the facility, half of them in a parking lot outside. The facility has an official maximum capacity of 123.
“In the outside parking lot,” the report found “detainees were being held for processing in areas that did not have heating, cooling, shade, or flooring.”
One cell, for instance, with a stated maximum capacity of 12, was said to be housing 57 adult women. An OIG count found 76 adult women were actually in the cell.
An adjacent cell intended for just 8 people was found to have 41 adult women crammed inside “in standing room only conditions” with no room to lay down and sleep, with one toilet and one sink. Agents told the OIG some of the migrants had been in standing room-only conditions, many wearing soiled clothing, “for days or weeks.”
The facility has just four temporary showers, leading to a smell inspectors described as “what might have been unwashed bodies/body odor, urine, untreated diarrhea, and/or soiled clothing/diapers.”
Jig Man
Active member
Couldn't agree more, no way I'm going back until things change either. I'm not even going to the border fishing for awhile. But their government is still kinda in control, so it is still classified as a safe haven. The part that is most disturbing is what is happening to the children. With the loopholes in our laws they are being exploited terribly by the cartels. You would think we could get something done about that...
Bucho
Member
Hawnjigs said:
Sick and tired of people around me who act like there was no safe place in all of Africa and Asia combined, I was about to make a sarcastic remark on that. Now I`m glad that I didn`t. Looked up the travel safety advice of our foreign affairs bureau instead which was sobering to say the least.
What`s going on over there? :huh: When I visited Costa Rica in 2013 they said -if I remember right - that Guatemala and Honduras were unsafe to travel individually and San Salvador was practically owned by 8 families that you better don`t mess with, but now it seems like the entire region was troubled.
duffy
Member
About 10 years ago I talked with a young man from Guatemala. I asked him how things were there and he said that during the day it was ok but if you were at a friends house and it got dark you better just stay there until the next day. He said it wasn't getting any better and the Government basically didn't do anything about it.